Rear-sump FE pan install in 4x2 truck; clearance problem.

[robroy]

Good day!

This is a continuation of some posts in one of my project updates threads; I wanted to make it a separate thread (for more visibility) since it's a distinct issue. http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... =a#p382422

My new engine has a Milodon 30550 oil pan, like this:



According to Milodon this pan isn't supposed to fit a 4x2 truck, and it doesn't seem to. It hits the steering linkage. Here's Milodon's application info:

Designed for applications where extra rough terrain and jumping may be encountered, as well as for vans. Sump is moved to rear for additional differential clearance and increased capacity. Features horizontal baffles. Pan fits 4WD trucks, 1978 & up Broncos and vans. Features factory hard style fitting to attach factory style screw-in dipstick tube.

Here's a photo of the pan hitting my steering linkage. It hits the linkage when it's still elevated about 1.5" over the engine mounts, so there's no way this is going to work without making some changes:



And here's a photo showing how far the engine is still elevated when the pan hits the linkage.



The factory 360 has a front-sump pan that had no clearance issues.

I'd rather find a way to make this pan work than put on another front-sump pan for these reasons:

1. I'd like to avoid the work and cost of installing a new pan and oil pick up.
2. I'm not sure if I even can change the pan without lifting the engine way up in the air, which might be a real challenge.
3. I've heard that the rear-sump pans are better for performance engines, since the oil sloshes towards the oil pick up instead of away from it during acceleration.
4. This particular pan has baffles in it that make the oil slosh around less for off road driving.
5. This is an eight quart oil pan, whereas the front sump pan I'd use holds seven quarts.
6. I can change the oil on this pan cleanly. With the front sump pan, the oil splashes all over the crossmember, making a huge mess.

And here are reasons the front sump pan would be better:

1. It will fit without needing to modify the steering linkage.
2. I wouldn't need to worry about strange side effects of steering modifications.
3. I wouldn't need to worry about the steering linkage striking the pan under full suspension compression.
4. The truck would have better clearance under the engine area (perhaps not an issue unless I driver over lots of boulders, which I don't).

I heard from Fordnatic in my project updates post that he used a 4x4 pitman arm to drop the linkage down a ways, which cured his clearance problem with a rear sump pan.

Here are my questions:

1. Are there any options for resolving this clearance problem other than installing a new pan or modifying the steering linkage?
2. Has anybody else had success with the 4x4 pitman arm modification?
3. Are there any potential side effects of the 4x4 pitman arm modification, like enhanced bump steer or anything?
4. Has anybody made new 4x4 pitman arms or will I need to get a wrecking yard arm?
5. Will any 4x4 pitman arm from a Bumpside fit my steering box (I have stock 1972 manual steering)?

Thanks very much for reading!
Robroy

[robroy]

Here's a photo showing how the steering is hooked up today:



Thanks!
Robroy

[wickedinhere]

I would try a drop pitman arm .

[robroy]

Thanks WickedInHere!

That's a good idea! Since the sump on my pan seems to be deeper than the factory 4x4 sump, I may need to do more extensive modifications than just installing the 4x4 pitman arm. Maybe a pitman arm made to go with a lift kit is the answer.

Even then, I'll have some stuff hanging down pretty low under the truck! That could snag on things on branches or whatever I run over. Perhaps the new pan is the way to go.

Thanks again WickedInHere,
Robroy

[DBossMan]

If you are willing to look at a different pan, I'd recommend looking at the pan's Dooley Enterprises makes. They make full sump 9qt pan and a 12 qt full sump pan with kickouts.

I have the 9 qt pan on my 72 Crew. Its a real nice piece and comes with a windage tray and oil pump pickup.

http://www.dooleyenterprises.com/Oilpans/oilpan.html

Tim

[robroy]

Tim, that looks very interesting! Nine and twelve quarts--that's a lot of oil!

Did the pan feel as sturdy as a pan meant for automobiles? I'd wonder about that since I'd imagine that boat engines might not encounter the same sudden shocks that a car delivers to its engine.

So is your crew cab a 4x2 or 4x4? If it's a 4x2 and the 9 quart pan fits with no issues, I'll be very interested in that!

Also, does your crew' have a 390 in it? I notice that they sell the pan for a 427/428--I'm not sure if this is exactly the same as the 390 (enough for this pan to bolt right up).

Thanks Tim!!!
Robroy

[Redcap]

Tim, that looks very interesting! Nine and twelve quarts--that's a lot of oil!

Did the pan feel as sturdy as a pan meant for automobiles? I'd wonder about that since I'd imagine that boat engines might not encounter the same sudden shocks that a car delivers to its engine.

So is your crew cab a 4x2 or 4x4? If it's a 4x2 and the 9 quart pan fits with no issues, I'll be very interested in that!

Also, does your crew' have a 390 in it? I notice that they sell the pan for a 427/428--I'm not sure if this is exactly the same as the 390 (enough for this pan to bolt right up).

Thanks Tim!!!
Robroy

A FE is a FE is a FE on a lot of stuff.

[kaptnkaos]

Hey Robroy,

Ford FT engines (330,361,391) all have full sump pans that will bolt right up to and FE...

KaptnKA S

[robroy]

Aaron and KaptnKA S, thanks for the replies!

A FE is a FE is a FE on a lot of stuff.

OK! I guess I was a little concerned that there could be a difference in the way the oil pick up connects to the engine, but maybe they're the same. At any rate, I mailed the company to see if they know whether or not their pan will work on a 390. I don't especially expect them to know, since boats might not have 390s too often, but it was worth a try.

Hey Robroy, Ford FT engines (330,361,391) all have full sump pans that will bolt right up to and FE...

That sounds like an interesting alternative! And it means to me that a full sump pan must be better--right? There's a definite benefit in having more oil around, correct?

Thanks again!
Robroy

[averagef250]

Robroy, in your situation I would disconnect the pitman arm from the box and install the engine in it's mounts. Get everything where it's supposed to be except steering linkage.

For a pitman arm I would use a steering arm from a 1980 through 1997 F-250 4x4 or F350 4x4. It should be similiar length to your original and mount right up, but have about a 2" offset to it. The only issue may be in the clocking of the arm. The tapered pitman splines typically have 4 wide splines in them so you can get the thing a spline or two off by accident. You have to grind a wide spline or two out of the ID of the arm to clock it correctly. Use a carbide burr in a die grinder. This should not weaken anything to the point of concern.

[robroy]

Dustin, thanks for your detailed reply!

I looked on RockAuto and see that those pitman arms are available new, which is a whole lot simpler than searching a junk yard for a Bumpside 4x4 pitman arm. I have a few more questions on this new info:

1. Does it matter whether the pitman arm is intended for a power or manual steering box? Or did all of those trucks have power steering in those years anyways? Mine's a manual box.
2. Updating the pitman arm using a grinder sounds pretty tricky! Does the update involve removing one or two of the ridges from the spline?
3. Can you think of any easy way to make sure that once installed, the steering arms won't hit the pan under suspension compression (other than actually compressing the suspension)?
4. I see some 4" offset pitman arms on Summit intended for raised trucks; do you think that's too much offset?

I'll look through various years in the range you've suggested to see how much variety I come up with in part numbers. If there are tons of different parts I'll be more careful about ordering one--if they're pretty much all the same parts I'll order one to see how it works.

Thanks very much for your superb help Dustin!
Robroy

[averagef250]

Robroy, there's no such thing for trucks built before 1978. The 4x4's back then had entirely different steering systems and nothing interchanges.

This is why I suggest 1980-97 stuff. The splines are the same between the old and new stuff. I don't remember what fits together and what doesn't because the last time I did something like this was 6+ years ago and the application was very different.

If you can find one of the pitman arms I listed it may just bolt right up, I can't remember how the splines worked since what I used it for was very different from your use here.

[robroy]

Robroy, there's no such thing for trucks built before 1978. The 4x4's back then had entirely different steering systems and nothing interchanges.

OK got it!

This is why I suggest 1980-97 stuff. The splines are the same between the old and new stuff. I don't remember what fits together and what doesn't because the last time I did something like this was 6+ years ago and the application was very different.

If you can find one of the pitman arms I listed it may just bolt right up, I can't remember how the splines worked since what I used it for was very different from your use here.

Okay, thank you Dustin! I'll analyze the part number variations for those years to see what I can come up with.

In other news, I received a call from Craig at Dooley Enterprises today about their 9 and 12 quart 427/428 pans! I heard that their pan kit includes the pan, a special windage tray (goes inside the pan), a pick up, and extended "main cap" bolts. It's my understanding that the extended length bolts are required because their windage tray sits down lower than the factory tray (if the factory even used one, which I'm not sure about).

The price for the pan, bolts, pick up, and tray? $678 for the 9 quart and $804 for the 12 quart.

Seems steep compared to the Milodon parts, but I didn't actually add up the cost of the Milodon pan plus its pick up.

Changing the main cap bolts sounds involved, especially working from under the engine, while the engine is hovering over the crossmember. The steering modification is starting to sound more rosy.

Thanks again Dustin!
Robroy

[robroy]

Here's a short survey of the pitman arms available through NAPA, RockAuto and Summit:



Dustin, I'm guessing that all three options from RockAuto are the same, just from different manufacturers.

The custom ones at the bottom are interesting with their 4" offset. I'm thinking that a 4" drop might make the steering too low.

Thanks!
Robroy

[sideoilerfe]

That oil pan you have is pretty cool but unfortunately it doesn't fit the 4x2 truck. I don't see a problem with just using your old stock pan. I would think that would be easier and more cost efficient to do so instead of paying $600 for a 9 Quart oil pan. To each his own.