|
<Climbing up
on the soapbox> |
 |
As some of you know, I've been a very active participant of the FTE
'67-'72 truck forum. Anytime somebody's had a question, I've done my best
to answer it to the best of my abilities. There have been times I've spent
an entire evening doing nothing but answer questions, edit photos, etc. to
use specifically on the FTE forum to help others out. It was a labor of
love, for the most part...I'm a very enthusiastic supporter of Ford
pickups, and have always conducted myself in an appropriate manner on the
forums. I've never called anyone a name, I've never used bad language. In
the 6 months I was an extremely active participant of the FTE forum, I'd
logged almost 400 posts! I had a small photo album in the Gallery
section (with nothing but pictures of my '67 F-100 shortbox) and also had
two hidden galleries with pics of items to use in my replies...pictures of
items specifically requested and directly relating to '67-'72 Ford
pickups. I even once made a special trip to my shop across town to take
photos of something on my truck in regards to an inquiry on the forum. I
came back, spent time editing the photos and posting them to the FTE forum
to help someone out. In fact, I've been nothing but helpful, courteous and
completely professional...or so I thought.
My own Ford pickup website is slowly becoming a good research resource for
those inquiring minds who simply need good information on their '67-'72
Ford pickups. I've spent a LOT of time researching various topics out and
posting the results, usually with pictures and detailed information,
usually in response to inquiries on the FTE forum. I posted a pointer to
it every time I added something which I thought would be of use to the
participants of the FTE forum....and I've received nothing but praise from
the many participants of the FTE forum for the many hours of work I've put
into my site.
However, that apparently wasn't enough...or perhaps, too much!
In the interests of making my Ford site all that it can be, I initiated my
own web forum, where we can call discuss our trucks in an almost
unmoderated manner. Unlike the FTE forums, we'd be free to list items for
sale. Unlike FTE, we'd be able to discuss vendors (good AND bad)
and not have our posts censored or deleted entirely. I never gave my forum
a thought that it would EVER be competition for FTE. I'm just one guy
banging away on a computer out in the middle of Nebraska (Ford country!).
But apparently, the powers-that-be at FTE see things differently.
At lunchtime at work today I decided to pop onto my forum to see if there
had been any new posts overnight. There WAS one...somebody asking what
happened to several of the threads I'd initiated on the FTE forums.
Confused, I logged onto their forum and was overwhelmed by what I found.
A majority of my posts to the forum over the past 6 months has either been
deleted or severely edited. My signature file (which was COMPLETELY
appropriate to the forum, according to and abiding by their own rules) no
longer had my website address in it. My Photo Gallery has been "Hidden by
Admin".
In other
words, I'VE BEEN CENSORED!
I posted a a very polite inquiry on the board requesting an explanation on
why my posts were deleted or edited, my Photo Gallery hidden and my sig
file severely edited. That post immediately generated several responses
from people wondering as well, and thanking me for my hard work.
Unfortunately, that thread lasted a whole 15 minutes before it was
deleted. One of the people who responded in that thread almost immediately
posted an inquiry as to why the thread was deleted....and it TOO got
deleted!
Why? Well,
listen to the owner of FTE:
==================================================
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:27:17 -0500
To: wp442@yahoo.com
From: "FTE Support" <service@ford-trucks.com>
Subject: Inappropriate use of FTE
Please do not use FTE to promote competing forums. I have spent years and
countless thousands of dollars growing FTE and using the results of my
efforts to promote your forums is inappropriate.
Thank you,
Ken Payne
Ford Truck Enthusiasts, Inc.
http://www.ford-trucks.com
==================================================
Hmmmm....so the countless hours I spent on FTE helping out
the people who come to your site are meaningless? Wouldn't a simple
request to "not use FTE to promote [my] forums" have been much more
productive than the excessive and heavy-handed approach taken?
Hey, wait!....as I'm typing this, I get another e-mail from Ken:
(my lines are in blue, his response in
red)
=================================================
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:34:05 -0500
To: wp442@yahoo.com
From: "FTE Support" <service@ford-trucks.com>
Subject: re: Why have my posts been deleted?
>>Why have my posts been deleted?
>>Just curious....why have a lot of my previous posts on this board been
removed?
>>I'm referring to those posts of mine mentioning updates to the VIN data
plate
>>code pages on my website. Every one of them have been removed from the
board!
>>Have I done something to offend the powers-that-be? If so, I
apologize...but I
>>think it would have been nice for someone to at least inform me what
they're
>>doing and why. Granted, it's not my board, the owners are free to do
with it
>>as they please...but to the best of my knowledge I've been nothing but
helpful
>>and forthcoming since I came on here 6 months ago, and certainly haven't
done
>>anything to cause any ruckus in any way. So what's going on??
First you stepped up to the line when you started
inviting users to your chat
instead of ours. Then you crossed the line when you when you started using
our site to invite users to your forums.
Normally I do not allow continuous site promotion (cheer leading),
especially
when its excessive (about 1 of every 5 of your posts mentioned your site).
I
allowed it because you are an active, contributing part of the FTE
community.
FTE is a family operated business, and I've spent 7 years and tens of
thousands
of dollars growing, funding and marketing the site. It is not fair to me
to
allow someone to use the results of my investment to market a site with
competing services. Frankly, I was quite angry when you posted the invite
and removed many of the links to your site as a result of my mood. I felt
that
you took advantage of FTE's user base without asking me for prior
permission. I
insist that you not use the FTE site to announce your forums and chat
again,
and the amount of your site promotion to your site decrease. If you can
abide by
this I don't intend to continue link removal.
I'm sure you would feel the same way if you had a shop and one of your
customers came in and invited your clients to his workshop.
>>....and it gets even MORE interesting! I just
tried to log in to check some of
>>my other previous posts, and was informed my account has been disabled!
Your account was not and has not been disabled. If
you tried to access
a post moved off-line it would give an access error.
>>Plus my sig file no longer has my website address
in it...
Correct.
>and my photo gallery has been "Hidden by
Admin"...both of which have
>nothing but Ford pickup content on it!
That was not done by me. It was Eric or Dennis,
completely independent of me
and prior to anything I said to them concerning you. They check the albums
every
couple of days and hide them when they contain items solely for posts
(ie, diagrams, charts, etc.). If it contains only your truck, they would
leave it. When I hide an album I don't put "Hidden by Admin" in it, I just
hide it and let
the system dispatch an automatic notification email. AFAIK, the ablum
[SIC] has
nothing
to do with your site posts.
>(all albums with items meant solely for forum posts
are
>I was able to find a couple posts of mine which were NOT deleted, but
they were
>edited to remove my website address.
No quite. A very small fraction of your posts were
moved off-line.
>Does my starting a Ford pickup website suddenly
turn me into competition or
>something??
No, but forums and chat do.
>I don't know, but I think I deserve an explanation
here.
Now you have one. I didn't send anything to you last
night because I
try to not have discussions while I'm angry. Also, this is a private
between
you and I. If you insist on discussing it on the forums I'll remove those
posts ---I don't think this needs to escalate any further than it already
has.
-Ken Payne
Ford Truck Enthusiasts, Inc.
http://www.ford-trucks.com
==========================================================
WHAT?! "...I don't think this needs to
escalate any further than it already has..."???? Ken, it didn't need to
escalate AT ALL! I'm a very reasonable man, and a simple request to
tone things down would have had a much better response and I would have
apologized and immediately complied! If I was 'stepping up to the line' in
your forum, why didn't you let me know beforehand that it wasn't my place
to stand? If I 'crossed a line', couldn't you have let me know, without
suddenly getting an attitude and getting happy with the delete button? (My
gallery IS hidden, by the way...probably because all my photos have a
watermark with my site URL on it.)
You say you've "spent 7 years and tens of thousands of dollars growing,
funding and marketing the site". While this might be true, aren't you
kinda forgetting the tens of thousands of participants in your forum who
have made it what it is for you?? People come back to your forums because
they are getting answers to questions from knowledgeable people. It's the
enthusiasm of people like me that FUND your site! Well, actually it's
their purchases of your advertiser's products that fund your site. How in
the world does my little rinky-dink web forum offer ANY competition to
you, when I accept NO advertising from commercial vendors at all? In fact,
I've even helped PROMOTE your site! For just ONE example, check out this
thread from another Ford truck forum:
http://ftw.truckmoxie.com/forums/topic.ten?id=228494
You go on to say:
--------------------------
It is not fair to me to allow someone to use the
results of
my investment to market a site with competing services.
--------------------------
"Competing services"??? Ken, I HAVE no services! Only
information, nothing more. Oh, and my forum, of course....but one where we
aren't being censored. I have to think you have a LOT of GALL to stand
there and basically accuse me of taking advantage of you, when you do it
on a daily basis with tens of thousands of people! Now isn't that a little
like the pot calling the kettle black, to coin an old phrase? You said
yourself "I allowed it because you are an active, contributing part of the
FTE community."
Doesn't that sound just a little hypocritical of you, Ken? While you're
using of all us for your own monetary gain, we, on the other hand, simply
want to talk trucks with other people with similar interests. Nothing
more! I'm making no money doing any of this...it's simply of love of old
Ford trucks that I spend the time and energy I do. And of COURSE you
"allowed it"! It was (partly) the time and effort I put forth for the
benefit of your forum participants that many of your forum visitors
returned. (Don't get me wrong...I'm not taking a lot of credit, but I WAS
helping out quite a bit, you have to admit...oh wait, you DID admit it!)
How else do you think your forum became popular? Because of people who
come to the site, converse, exchange information, etc. People were coming
to the forums to get answers from people like me, because word was getting
out they could get answers there. And while they were GETTING those
answers, you were getting paid for all those banner ads flashing in their
face, getting a percentage of the profits from people clicking on those
banner ads and visiting those vendors from your website. You don't think
that you using your forum to attract people to chat, so you can plaster
YOUR choice of vendor's ads all over the page isn't USING people? Of
COURSE it is! You're using those same people to make a buck or two...but
only in a manner that YOU get to dictate. YOU get to tell them what to
talk about and what NOT to talk about even if it's directly related to the
topic of the forum...and if they "cross the line" you'll censor them,
plain and simple, with no warning whatsoever...and won't even allow them
to discuss it with you in an open forum. I tried 3 times to post messages
afterwards, and they never lasted more than 15-30 minutes, with you saying
instead "If you insist on discussing it on the forums I'll remove those
posts...".
---------------------
>Does my starting a Ford pickup website suddenly
turn me into competition or
>something??
No, but forums and chat do.
---------------------
Ah...now we're getting to the meat of the matter!
Ken, one of the main reasons I created this web forum
was because of the way you censored what was on yours. The internet (and
chat forums especially) should be a free exchange of information about the
topic at hand. People come to the forums to get information. They want the
whole story...not what some forum host chooses to tell them. Your problems
with various vendors are just that...YOUR problems. You're not only
punishing the vendor in question, but the people who come to the forum,
for they're not being given all the information they need to solve their
problem.
My forum was created because we want to talk, for
example, about:
LMC TRUCK.COM
out in the
open without fear of getting our hands slapped or our posts deleted. We
want to discuss which forum participants have what good used parts
for sale out in the open, without feeling like we're dealing our spare
parts on the black market. We want to actually mention that some vendor
who advertises on your site has something in their catalog which is
substandard and should be avoided. When you attempt to CONTROL the
information you present, Ken, rather than just telling it like it is and
allowing the people to make up their own minds for themselves, you
alienate the very people who came to you asking for help. And chances are
they'll be less likely to return in the future unless as a last resort.
---------------------
Also, this is a private between you and I. I insist that you not use the
FTE site to announce your forums and chat again, and the amount of your
site promotion to your site decrease. If you can abide by this I don't
intend to continue link removal.
---------------------
Sorry, Ken...ain't gonna happen. I don't believe in hiding if the subject
at hand is as important as this one. If I have something to say, I'll say
it in an OPEN forum for all to see and read, so they can make up their own
minds. Doesn't matter if they agree with me or not. I will NOT toe the line
for anyone...period. If you're so worried that my little forum is that
much competition for you, you really need to get a grip! That site has
taken over your life, man! I'd rather stay with my own small forum, even
if it doesn't have as many participants as yours, simply because the
people who DO use mine are probably more apt to be genuine. They won't
have to worry about pissing someone off, getting sanctioned, deleted,
chastised, etc. They can speak freely and openly....within reason of
course. There are always exceptions, but I don't believe this was even
close.
I like information. I want to know it ALL...good AND bad! It's painfully
obvious, once again, that a free exchange and sharing of information is
not possible at your forums. That's too bad.
<heavy sigh> OK....I guess the bottom line is this,
folks. I like Ford trucks. Period. I have no beef with vendors. I have no
problem with people trying to help each other out with spare parts. Not
only is it the American way, but it's one of the main reasons the internet
was developed in the first place: to share information. If I wanted
censorship, I'd go somewhere else...or stay at FTE, but that ain't gonna
happen either. Ken can have his little corner of the internet. I have no
problem with him running his corner the way he wants. I have no problem
with any of the great people I've met on his board to continue to
patronize his board. It's your choice. However, if they should decide to
check out mine from time to time, that's great, too. If you find you can't
discuss something on his, by all means come over to mine and talk till
you're blue in the face. I'm not going to say I won't miss the Ken's
forums, because I will. But life's too short to butt heads with someone
over something like this. I'm just going to shake my head and walk away.
I've never been a political person...but I AM passionate about certain
things in life. I just think this could have been handled in a much more
mature manner and not pissed anybody off. Oh well, such is life! To quote
a line in a popular Bob Seger song...'turn the page'.
Ken: If I'm no
longer allowed to use your forum to promote my little site when something
of value or interest is posted there, I really have no problem with that.
I won't be back. Your problem is solved and your "competition" has been
vanquished. However, then I really think it's only fair for you to no
longer continue to use my posts to help out YOUR visitors. I respectfully
request that you remove ALL my posts, not just ones with my links in them
or ones of your choosing. If you DON'T remove all my posts, then it can
only be construed that you ARE indeed a very hypocritical person who won't
stand behind your own convictions. It will be obvious to those who
frequent your board that you mean business and serve as a reminder to them
to not get on your bad side and to walk the line that you draw for them.
I choose to
not live life like that. There's too many good things and good people out
there to enjoy and experience...and too many Ford trucks to be compulsive/obsessive over.
I've said my
piece. I'm off my soapbox now. The page has turned...on with life.
CLICK HERE TO VISIT THE FORDIFICATION FORUMS...
WHERE YOU CAN SAY WHAT'S ON YOUR MIND, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER
OR NOT I OR OTHER FORUM PARTICIPANTS AGREE WITH IT!
-
Did a
popular vendor screw you over?
POST IT!
-
Did you have
a good experience with a vendor?
POST IT!
-
Do you have
some used parts you want to unload?
POST IT!
-
Do you
disagree with me and think Ken is right in his position?
POST IT!
-
Do you
simply want to talk trucks in a relaxed environment with other Ford
truck lovers, without having to watch what you say anymore?
POST IT!
|
UPDATE: July 2, 2006
Since posting this little rant several years ago, I've
gotten (and continue to get) MANY very positive responses
from it. Some folks have stated that they've joined these
forums specifically because of this piece, or have at least
started severely curtailing their visits there because of
it. I've decided to post a few of the unsolicited e-mails
I've received concerning the behavior and policies there.
The names have been purposely omitted to protect their
identities, since the owners of 'The Dark Side' (as it's
referred to here) have proven time and time again that
uttering any disparaging remarks, however slight they might
be, are grounds for immediate termination of their account
there. In a couple cases I've also done minor editing in
regards to spelling and punctuation to help readability.
Read on:
|
|
11-21-04
I am a member of Ford truck enthusiasts, Fordsix.com,
fordtruckworld.com - (which is useless for older ford
trucks).
At one time I was a moderator on FTE and now (for
reasons unknown to me) I am not.
I never received any notification from the FTE
administrator. I started working a lot of hours and I wasn't
home that often but when I went online I noticed that I
wasn't a moderator of my forum.
I would like to say WELL DONE , I just read your "I've
been censored" page.
I found the LMC topic on FTE quite juvenile and
foolish. I was e-mailed by Dennis from FTE and told that I
should not talk about LMC because Ken had a problem with
them (After I posted a answer to a question about the
availability of a part from LMC). Dennis went on to say that
LMC does not give away free tech support, where as FTE has
the forums to answer questions about products sold at
[there].) Again a very emotional e-mail- (Like I know about
Ken's PERSONAL BUSINESS!)
My point being good, bad or indifferent you should be
able to discuss the products sold by LMC .
I have found that LMC sells some products that I have
found very difficult to find else where.
People are going to buy the parts they need from where
ever they can ( At least I do).
I do not own a 1967-1972 ford truck...but I intend to
join your forums and help out as much as I can. |
|
1-9-05
I just ran across your site. SWEET is what I say. Very well put together,
very professional looking, I'm impressed. I read your "I've
been censored article" with interest. I am afraid that I
know others that Ken felt like they were pissing on his cash
cow....I am guilty of spending more time there than I should
as of late. I did become a moderator there so I could keep
up with what is going on... |
|
1-10-05
...I just read the "I'm censored" and can't believe the way
you were treated. I used to go that site some, but not now.
Keep up the good work. I'll be chiming in some on your
forums... |
|
3-14-05
I read what you had to say on your site about FTE. I agree
with what you have to say. For what it's worth to you I have
seen guys on there looking for parts that I have laying
around and have posted back and offered to give them the
parts and had the post either deleted or had the thread
locked up. I was not trying to sell anything, or make any
money. I was just trying to help a fellow enthusiast out.
Also, I have seen guys looking for parts that FTE's sponsors
don't even have. LMC has the parts, but you can't say that.
In my opinion, an enthusiast site should be set up like
yours. Where people can openly discuss parts, procedures,
and anything else that pertains to this hobby including
other web sites that have useful information. On to better
things. Your web site may be much smaller than FTE, but you
have got a ton of information and excellent pictures. I
actually drive a 73 model. As you well know a lot of the
stuff interchanges. I also have friends that drive trucks
any where from 65 to 77. I would like information about
becoming a member of your site... |
|
3-30-05
...By the way, I've written a few of the vendors I've used
that are supporters of FTE and told them about what happened
and that I thought they should know that their customers are
being harassed and banned from FTE because they are also
members of another 67-72 (I didn't say Fordification-didn't
want to drag you into it) site...I got a couple responses
back thanking me for the information, and that they would
monitor it... I thanked them for their consideration and
urged they investigate more before they negotiate a new
contract with FTE... |
|
3-30-05
I'm happy to see another site dedicated to the 67-72 ford
trucks. I actually heard about your site on FTE, so your
getting some good publicity in FTE's forums... |
|
4-13-05
I would like to say thanks for having this site.
Secondly I joined up [recently] and got my proverbial arse
kicked out of FTE.
No great loss but I will see that prick at the
Supernationals and get a word in... |
|
4-28-05
...I read your rant about FTE and your not alone. its
getting bad over there... |
|
5-19-05
I have been looking for sites such as yours for some time
and I am very pleased to have found it. I read your
correspondence with your "competitor" and your censorship,
"Stick to your guns and let 'em have it", I say. I too share
your philosophy of free knowledge and people helping people.
Keep up the good work... |
|
6-11-05
I was once a user of FTE, I was not very happy with 1)
trying to be accepted to where I could post and such. 2) the
greater-than-thee attitude of some of the folks in FTE. I
think you have done an outstanding job with this site. As we
say in Texas Damn Bueno!! |
|
7-7-05
...the reason you got censored was because your lil ol' site
blew the doors off their huge site with LOTS of very direct
information, you showed them up ! |
|
8-16-05
I am writing to thank you for your efforts re your marvelous
website. One day I hope to have enough disposable cash to
make a donation. In the meantime I can only offer my moral
support & some information for your gristmill, to wit: I am
a retired legal researcher who has been employed by many
attorney's & paralegals, etc. in the past. What Ken Payne
from FTE has done to you is unconstitutional & thereby both
unlawful & illegal (there is a difference). |
|
10-26-05
Hi...You may recognize my screen name from slick60s and FTE
(if you ever go there still). I had a run in with Ken Payne
as well and I am no longer spending much time there. The guy
is a real @ss.... |
1-17-06
...My dad read the censorship and said those people sound
more like dictatorship. Anyway he thinks they should hire
you... |
|
I read with interest your drama regarding the FTE and I have
to say, I support you. I've been to the FTE in the past (not
as an active participant) to look up stuff on my [truck].
It's only as good as a "try to fit all" site can be...I
moderate a forum for where I work, and I try to be a
diplomat about it, but I have had to block a person because
they never had anything good to say, but it is pretty clear
to me that wasn't the case with you. Oh well, I say. I'd
have to say your site is the quintessential resource for the
67-72 truck. Great job! |
|
5-5-06
I totally agree with your information as to the censorship
issue. It is your information that is being supplied and
your venue that will give a more free exchange of
information rather than clog up his site. I am glad you have
your own site now... |
|
6-30-06
I'm fairly new to your website, and just found and read
"I've been censored!".
Ken makes a couple of good points, but I still think
he's a bit over the top when it comes to protecting his
interests.
I've long since quit visiting FTE on any sort of
regular basis, primarily because one of his rules is that
you can't mention any other websites in his forums. I didn't
realize this would be a problem 'til I tried to explain to
another participant that there was info available on-line on
how to build a solid-state instrument voltage regulator. I
couldn't tell the guy where to go! I eventually realized
that FTE exists only to market itself on the assets that the
forum participants provide for free: tech knowledge,
enthusiasm, and a ready, well-defined market. I began to
look for alternatives, which I found in Project Bronco
(focus on 78-79 Broncos and M-block engines) and FordSix.com
and Inliners International, all of which do a better job of
addressing my particular interests ('73-77 trucks, M-blocks,
and the big six). I haven't been to FTE in months. Last time
I went there, a small pop-up reminded me that I hadn't
posted anything in a long time, with the additional
implication that I had a duty to participate or something to
that effect.
I discovered Fordification several months ago when
someone on the American Truck Historical Society forum (aths.org)
referred me to you for info on the Advance Adapters Ranger
overdrive, which I now plan to buy primarily because of the
info you've made available (and when I do, I'll be sure to
mention why I chose them).
In the end, I have to side with you in this matter. My
primary motivation for forum participation is to learn, to
benefit from the experience of others and perhaps share some
of my own. I understand the need to turn a profit, but to
put blinders and muzzles on participants is self-centered
and short-sighted. FTE didn't have info on building a
solid-state instrument voltage regulator, but participants
there might've been able to learn through FTE where to find
that info, and they would've remembered FTE for that and
returned. They didn't, they won't, 'nuff said. |
|
I've Been Censored!
