What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

[70shortwide]

http://www.ripoffreport.com/auto-parts/ ... -bdbd7.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/auto-parts/ ... -b95cc.htm

Ugh. Hey, I wonder if you can hear the cam going in the video they sent? Seems a 274 shouldn't have been very lopy with a 390ci engine like it would with a 302ci engine.

Jamie

If you scroll down on that second link it shows that the complaintant was happy with the resolution. maybe were gonna be wrong here and PU will make it right.

[1971ford]

http://www.ripoffreport.com/auto-parts/ ... -bdbd7.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/auto-parts/ ... -b95cc.htm

Ugh. Hey, I wonder if you can hear the cam going in the video they sent? Seems a 274 shouldn't have been very lopy with a 390ci engine like it would with a 302ci engine.

Jamie

If you scroll down on that second link it shows that the complaintant was happy with the resolution. maybe were gonna be wrong here and PU will make it right.

But could proformance unlimited have wrote that comment? I'm not sure how it works but it seems a little fishy to me.
Hopefully it did come out nice in the end but It's a possibility that they saw the post and wanted to add a twist to it.

[Ranchero50]

Searched back for the video,scary how high they revved it and held it there. It did have really high oil pressure to in the video.

Back when things were simpler...
http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... &sk=t&sd=a


Center expansion plug, is that a rebuilders tag? I've never used a ball pien hammer or an impact when putting a motor together.


notice the flash reflection from the block deck, doesn't look machined, looks like they used a cookie cutter wheel on it to clean up old gasketing material. Also what's up with all the overspray on the block? More importantly, notice the lifter valley isn't very clean?


One thing I noticed on the order sheet, doesn't say anything about breaking in the cam but sure does say performance a lot...
http://www.proformanceunlimited.com/spe ... 425hp.html


Yes I read the follow up and posted the link more as a possible source of recourse than anything else.

Jamie

[BobbyFord]

Center expansion plug, is that a rebuilders tag?...

That is a tab that the center melts out of at a certain temp. They stick it there for warranty reasons in case the engine was overheated.
Incidentally, on the build link it does state that there is a 1 year warranty. By the looks of the video it does not show any break-in procedure as recommended by camshaft manufacturer. I would not rev a fresh engine like that. My guess is that the cam was already on it's way out during the filming of that video.

[70shortwide]

not saying your right, but it looks like it was written by an employee? didnt catch that before.


I would give PU the benefit of the doubt there, purely because I HOPE your wrong. thats almost as bold as selling someone a junk motor and saying it was magnificent quality

[70_F100]

Center expansion plug, is that a rebuilders tag? I've never used a ball pien hammer or an impact when putting a motor together.

Ditto that!! I've used an impact to tear one down, but never during reassembly!!! And, it's actually a bad practice to tear one down that way.

Also, those expansion plugs look like they may have been INSTALLED using that hammer!!! Maybe it's just the flash...

notice the flash reflection from the block deck, doesn't look machined, looks like they used a cookie cutter wheel on it to clean up old gasketing material. Also what's up with all the overspray on the block? More importantly, notice the lifter valley isn't very clean?
Jamie

That deck looks like it's been cleaned using a 3M Roloc disc (maybe that's what you were talking about), but there's definitely no indication that it's been machined.

Whenever I've built an engine, I either wait until it's assembled or at least tape up areas that I want to keep overspray off of. Maybe the builder concentrated more on appearance than on quality...

[fordman]

that is exactly what i thought too. the author was posted by a guy named employee. not by the allenjr guy who first posted about it.

[70_F100]

that is exactly what i thought too. the author was posted by a guy named employee. not by the allenjr guy who first posted about it.

Not only that, but it was a request for a retraction/removal of the first post...

[ToughOldFord]

I just watched the video they have on their homepage, I think they should have had the Turbo Encabulator guy do it, it would have been more convincing.

[robroy]

Good afternoon!

Thank you all for the wonderful analysis, comments and suggestions! I'll respond properly to your posts soon, but I wanted to post the videos as soon as possible. Thanks for patiently waiting for them!

It'll be instantly obvious that I am not handy with a video camera, and you may have to turn up the sound a little high for some of them, since we were often standing a few feet away from the microphone. If you want to skip right to the "best of," try videos 2, 7, and 11. Note to Jamie: I made the Total Seal Rings video clip just for you!

Video format notes:

Knowing that y'all are using a variety of computers, I encoded all twelve of these videos in two formats: H.264/MPEG-4 AVC (those files have an "AVI" suffix) and WMV.

The H.264/MPEG-4 AVC files are high quality and recommended since some of the videos are focused on parts at close range, where you'll be looking at details. The drawback is that only rather modern programs can play these files. To play these, you'll need to have one of these programs installed: VLC 1.0.3 (my personal favorite Download for Windows here), Microsoft Media Player 7 (included in Windows 7), Apple Quicktime 7, or an Apple iPhone). Other rather new video playing programs can also handle this format.

The WMV files should play with older computers and programs, including the version of Windows Media Player that came with Windows XP. The visual quality of these video clips isn't as good though--they're "grainy" looking.

Click on either the "H.264" or the "WMV" links to download!

Video 1: Introduction and Cylinders. H.264 (16MB) WMV (16MB)


Video 2: Heads. H.264 (49MB) WMV (38MB)


Video 3: Crankshaft Pulley Shim. H.264 (5MB) WMV (5MB)


Video 4: Valve Lifters. H.264 (16MB) WMV (18MB)


Video 5: Crankshaft Scoring. H.264 (16MB) WMV (12MB)


Video 6: Pistons. H.264 (9MB) WMV (10MB)


Video 7: Oil Control in the Heads. H.264 (29MB) WMV (24MB)


Video 8: Water Jacket Corrosion. H.264 (13MB) WMV (8MB)


Video 9: Valve Spring Pressure. H.264 (9MB) WMV (7MB)


Video 10: Metal Shavings or Lack Thereof. H.264 (3MB) WMV (2MB)


Video 11: Main Cap Bearings. H.264 (26MB) WMV (19MB)


Video 12: Total Seal Rings. H.264 (6MB) WMV (5MB)


Tom deserves a special thanks for humoring my crazy video idea!

Thanks for all the truly outstanding guidance!!!
Robroy

[iamthewreckingcrew]

Robroy,
I watched all of the videos, thanks for sharing.

The two biggest things I see are that you are in good hands with your new builder, and you have the patience and positive attitude of twelve men. And I'll leave it at that rather than add any negative to the subject.

[fordman]

good idea abotu documenting the damage. but the video should had showed the damge to the parts actually as a close up or as shots that could have been seen clearer for a judge to see.

[OldRedFord]

When it comes to engine assembly even if it is just a stocker, cleanliness IS godliness. Also measure, measure and measure some more.

Your new builder comes across as being extremely competent.

This just reinforces the things I have learned about cleaning parts, and checking clearances and following part manufacturer instructions.

[70_F100]

The best thing I heard during listening and watching ALL of these videos was within the first few seconds of the first video.

Robroy, you've got to be a TRUE SOUTHERN BOY, because you started out with "Y'ALL"!!!

[robroy]

Good evening SideOilerFE, Robert, ToughOldFord, Jamie, BobbyFord, FoMoCoGuy, 70_F100, George, 70ShortWide, Ryan, Fordman, IAmTheWreckingCrew, and Tim (gosh that's a whole lot of you this time), thank you all so much for your superb replies!

I think that if proformance unlimited has read this thread then they'll refund your money. One would think they would realize that you are honest and just trying to make things fair. After all, you have not "slammed" them once. You have given them the benefit of the doubt every time. If they can do at least one thing right, it would be to refund ALL of your money for your trouble.

I can understand your reasons for saying this, and I hope you're right! I agree that if they wanted to completely un-do this situation, or at least as much as is even possible, they would refund every penny. That act could cause the tens or hundreds of guys who have come across this thread to re-think what they thought about Proformance Unlimited after reading all this.

If they cop an attitude and refuse, then I think legal action is your next and final step.

Agreed.

Regarding the build, that is just sloppy and unprofessional, period.

Yeah it does seem pretty strange doesn't it! I'm guessing that most random, small town machine shops would do a much better job than that, and Proformance Unlimited is supposed to be a real authority of high performance engines. Their work's supposed to be premium.

For Reference:

33-248-4 = Comp XE272

Cam Card

Ah! Thank you very much for looking up this information Robert! It's good to finally know exactly what's in there. All I heard from Proformance Unlimited in the past was that the cam was made by "Tom's Cams."

What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Yes that's a good statement! The original thread subject line has become increasingly ironic, which amuses me a great deal (just my strange sense of humor).

That looked like a fairly decent camshaft according to the specs. Too bad it was garbage in less than 20 minutes.

Yes, but at least as mentioned by Robert, I have a very lumpy paperweight now! It's a visually appealing and entertaining object.

Man, if you can't even take the time to tape off the block before painting with junk paint I don't see how anything else would hold up.

Good point! I remember looking at those photos a while back and wondering about the over-spray, but I figured it wasn't critical so I just forgot about it.

I guess the greatest irony is these guys do this for a living...

I can see what you'd say this! This engine MUST be a very unusual example of their work though, I'd imagine. How else could they possibly be in business? I'm guessing that the majority of their engines must at least be reasonable. Most other folks seem very happy with them!

Robroy, you are dealing with Jerseyites, nice and calm is weak and submissive, try to remember to be direct and forceful on the phone.

You know, I think you could be on to something here! It's certainly not in my nature to be pushy or to pressure people, but I'll be upfront about what I think and clearly communicate what I want from them.

I wish you luck and am actually happy that this is happening now instead of when the truck's on the highway in traffic hauling a load on a hot summers day.

Excellent thought! Yes, it would have been a much bigger let-down if the truck had failed on me after being put in to service. Not to mention that under those conditions, I might not be as sure what caused all the trouble.

So, what are the recommendations?

I'll post the details on the recommended new setup soon!

All the other issues aside (and there are quite a few of them) I personally believe the cam (lifter "B" started it) failed and all the scuffing and scratching is a result of that.

That makes sense! And that's the basic message I'm hearing from Tom also.

Yup. That's why I was asking about spring rate, break-in and such. I wonder what exactly the engine shop does to break-in the engine in house? I can't see how they could be following the procedure recommended by the cam manufacturers.

Interesting! Do you think it would be infeasible for the engine builder to have broken in the cam in the shop, without the engine installed in the vehicle? Or are you just thinking that they probably didn't follow the procedure (based on looking at the results)?

I don't care about the windage tray problem you had; it would have never came close to causing that sort of damage, especially the sloppy headwork.

I see what you mean, and I think you're right about this!

Every aspect of that engine should have been better than new for the kind of money you spent, but I know I don't have to tell you that.

Indeed, it should have been a real beauty for that kind of cash.

Not to mention the fact that the specs and details you were given were completely and totally false.

Yes, it does seem that a significant number of specs weren't accurate. I'd speculate that this was caused by accidental disorganization and not intention deception, but I guess there's no way to know for sure!

I have no doubt that you will get your money back one way or another; hopefully the short easy way and not the long hard way. Unbelievable.

Thanks for the words of encouragement!

I've been proven wrong about camshaft wear, and I admit it...
I have NEVER seen a cam THAT worn with less than 100.000 miles!!!

I see! Based on the photos, does it look like there's any chance that this was a used camshaft? I'm not sure how they normally look when they're new. A lot of the surfaces on this one looked more stained than I figured a new shaft would look, but that could be a byproduct of surface degradation I guess.

http://www.ripoffreport.com/Auto-Parts/ ... -7cd72.htm

Indeed, I did find that article and another similar one. Of course, in contrast with their huge number of completely positive and enthusiastic testimonials (on their web site), these few dissatisfied customers might be almost unavoidable. They might be dealing in a pretty large volume of engines. Of course, that's no excuse for the workmanship in this engine I bought, regardless of all that.

For the block generally the 105 (or actually reverse 105) blocks are considered quite good and it is much more common for them to go to std 428 bore. I would probably use DSC's "truck block" price and subtract the cost of the sonic check and magnaflux on the open market.

http://www.dscmotorsport.com/Engine/index.htm

Okay! Thanks very much for responding to this question I had. It looks like their "truck block" is $500, so I'd have to subtract the prices of a sonic check and magnaflux (I can find those things out).

I agree with Bobby Ford, it looks to me as if Comps break in recommendations were not followed, Comps XE line of cams does have a pretty fast ramp and they do specify relatively strong springs for it. Breaking in that cam with the inner and outer springs in place is in my opinion akin to playing Russian roulette with 3 live rounds in the cylinder. Fast ramps on a flat tappet cam are a double edged sword, yes they do help performance but they require stronger springs so failure is more likely.

Very interesting!

Lifter B is a mess, it looks like a wedge slid off the bottom of it in the pictures, Ive never seen one that looked that way, I think it was defective.

Good point! I could have been I guess!

I wonder if it is a Comp lifter?

I'm not sure how to find out, but I'll look in to this. It would be good to know.

I would say all but a couple were well on their way to failing without much help form the shrapnel.

Good to know. I wasn't sure how serious the markings and chips were on those lifters.

The markings on the cam, I would be willing to bet the "07208" is a date code of some sort, perhaps day 072 of 2008? day 208 of 2007?

That it could be! I heard from Tom that he thought it was the serial number, but I could call Comp Cams and ask (if it would be good to know for sure).

Either way, if it is one of those it is well after the Johnson lifter thing, although the lifters did not necessarily come with the cam.

Okay!

Comp has two spring recommendations for that cam:

924 (Seat load 112 lbs @1.900)
930 (Seat load 153 @1.900)

930 seems a bit over the top for a flat tappet cam to me, but that may be what is on it based on Tom's measurements.

Thanks very much for looking these things up! Yes, it does seem like those stiff springs match what Tom found.

On to the cam itself.

An XE274 doesn't seem to be extremely radical, it is a decent street CAR cam, and is even pretty popular with the FE forum crowd. It is in my opinion at least a better cam than a single pattern "High Energy" of any description. That said, I agree that it is not a very good choice for a ~ 5000 pound F250 with a gear numerically lower than 4.00:1 particularly when you consider tire diameter.

Interesting! I heard a similar report from Tom about it not being applicable to a heavy F250.

Don't guess it much matters at this point since that one is an unwieldy paperweight.

Indeed, and that's how it will carry out its new life of service, on my desk.

I guess one thing that really bothers me here is the cylinder walls and pistons, to my eyes it looks like the wear is inconsistent, I suspect there was another piston in there between the time it was bored & honed and the KB/SilvOLites. Probably never be able to prove that without calling in the CSI folks, but It just doesn't look right to me.

Could be! Who are the CSI folks?

KB/SL pistons are considered good inexpensive pistons, but they are usually pretty heavy, and I don't see a lot of indications of fresh balancing.

Okay, good to know!

I kind of wonder if this engine was built once, something went wrong, and it got "freshened up".

Just some random thoughts so far...

We will probably never know the true whole story.

True! It's fascinating to hear what you guys come up with though, based on your experience.

Now onto the heads:

Good lord what happened there? Seriously why go to the trouble to do a set of heads and do them so poorly?

Yeah, it's hard to imagine how somebody who knows a lot about heads could produce these, unless they were madly rushed to crank the engine out as quickly as possible.

I will be curious to hear Toms take, but I think I'd keep those around for "what not to do" demonstrations and just start over. If I am seeing the seats correctly they aren't even good cores. Just not worth the trouble to me.

You could pick up another set of C8AE-H cores and work/port them, but all things considered starting with an aftermarket aluminum head seems the way to go to me.

That makes sense, yet from what I heard from Tom, it sounds like these heads will be OK to re-do despite their problems.

I asked Tom about Edelbrock aluminum heads and heard that for my application, he'd recommend sticking with the cast iron heads (more detail on that in my proposed engine build update).

Maybe in some round about way the windage tray incident was a good thing because it looks to me like that engine would have blew up in a short amount of time and you would not have know how poorly the engine was built.

Exactly!

Anyway best of luck from here on out I hope PU does the right thing and refunds you money with out a court case.

Thanks! I hope so too.

http://www.ripoffreport.com/auto-parts/ ... -bdbd7.htm
http://www.ripoffreport.com/auto-parts/ ... -b95cc.htm

Hey Jamie, thanks for posting those other articles. It's interesting to note that however few they may be, some people have had issues with these engines before.

If you scroll down on that second link it shows that the complaintant was happy with the resolution. maybe were gonna be wrong here and PU will make it right.

That's what I'm hoping for!

But could proformance unlimited have wrote that comment? I'm not sure how it works but it seems a little fishy to me. Hopefully it did come out nice in the end but It's a possibility that they saw the post and wanted to add a twist to it.

Gosh, could this be? I guess there's no way to know for sure, but like your saying, the follow up post does look a little funny!

Searched back for the video,scary how high they revved it and held it there. It did have really high oil pressure to in the video.

Yes I suppose it was scary, after all! Jamie, thanks for looking back at the old photos and doing some analysis for me.

notice the flash reflection from the block deck, doesn't look machined, looks like they used a cookie cutter wheel on it to clean up old gasketing material. Also what's up with all the overspray on the block? More importantly, notice the lifter valley isn't very clean?

Good observations!

One thing I noticed on the order sheet, doesn't say anything about breaking in the cam but sure does say performance a lot...
http://www.proformanceunlimited.com/spe ... 425hp.html

Yes this could be! Yet I definitely heard it form them time and time again--this was supposed to be an engine that I could bolt in and drive. They did mention a 500 mile period where I should go easy on it, and change the oil when that was through, but it was made clear to me that they did the break-in.

Yes I read the follow up and posted the link more as a possible source of recourse than anything else.

Thanks for doing this Jamie!

That is a tab that the center melts out of at a certain temp. They stick it there for warranty reasons in case the engine was overheated.

Ah, very interesting.

Incidentally, on the build link it does state that there is a 1 year warranty.

Indeed! Yet the warranty expired this past October. The engine spent that entire year in storage and being installed.

By the looks of the video it does not show any break-in procedure as recommended by camshaft manufacturer.

True! Somehow I was under the impression that that portion of the build wouldn't be video recorded.

I would not rev a fresh engine like that. My guess is that the cam was already on it's way out during the filming of that video.

Wow. Amazing huh?

not saying your right, but it looks like it was written by an employee? didnt catch that before.

I would give PU the benefit of the doubt there, purely because I HOPE your wrong. thats almost as bold as selling someone a junk motor and saying it was magnificent quality

Agreed! It's funny that it would say "employee" like it does, but I can't believe that anybody would be deceptive like that.

Center expansion plug, is that a rebuilders tag? I've never used a ball pien hammer or an impact when putting a motor together.

Ditto that!! I've used an impact to tear one down, but never during reassembly!!! And, it's actually a bad practice to tear one down that way.

These are great observations--I wouldn't have noticed this!

Also, those expansion plugs look like they may have been INSTALLED using that hammer!!! Maybe it's just the flash...

It does look that way doesn't it! I could go back and look at other photos of those plugs, if this were an item of particular interest.

That deck looks like it's been cleaned using a 3M Roloc disc (maybe that's what you were talking about), but there's definitely no indication that it's been machined.

Yikes! I should probably ask Tom to confirm this.

Whenever I've built an engine, I either wait until it's assembled or at least tape up areas that I want to keep overspray off of. Maybe the builder concentrated more on appearance than on quality...

Yes, could be!

that is exactly what i thought too. the author was posted by a guy named employee. not by the allenjr guy who first posted about it.

Yeah that's something, huh!

Not only that, but it was a request for a retraction/removal of the first post...

Curious, isn't it!

Robroy,
I watched all of the videos, thanks for sharing.

You are most welcome! It was super nice of Tom to agree to it.

The two biggest things I see are that you are in good hands with your new builder, and you have the patience and positive attitude of twelve men. And I'll leave it at that rather than add any negative to the subject.

Well thank you very much for these nice comments! Yeah I have full confidence in Tom's abilities and intentions. He has very high standards, and you should see the remarkably good relations he has with his other customers too. I saw several of them stop by during my visits, and he treats them all like good old buddies!

good idea abotu documenting the damage. but the video should had showed the damge to the parts actually as a close up or as shots that could have been seen clearer for a judge to see.

Hey Fordman you're probably right here! The videos weren't that great, since I'm not handy with a video camera (and my camera's not so hot). I'm thinking that all the super detailed photos I took will work nicely to document the damage though--the videos were mainly made for fun and entertainment value--it's rare to see a video of an FE expert like that!

Next time I make a video will be when picking up the engine, and I'll get Kasie to come along and be the camera-woman. That should raise the quality a lot!

When it comes to engine assembly even if it is just a stocker, cleanliness IS godliness. Also measure, measure and measure some more.

I heard this same type of special point made by Tom on engine cleanliness! I guess that's a really big deal with these things.

Your new builder comes across as being extremely competent.

Yeah doesn't he? It makes me want to go out and buy another FE vehicle just to have another engine to take there! It's not easy to find specialists who are really good at what they do, and who are really fun to work with at the same time.

This just reinforces the things I have learned about cleaning parts, and checking clearances and following part manufacturer instructions.

Yeah I can imagine it does!

The best thing I heard during listening and watching ALL of these videos was within the first few seconds of the first video.

Robroy, you've got to be a TRUE SOUTHERN BOY, because you started out with "Y'ALL"!!!

HA! I'm glad my mannerisms created some levity and amusement! I'm actually not Southern at all, but I find the word "y'all" quite useful and pleasant. And hey, it's in the dictionary so I'm covered, right? EDIT: Maybe I really am a Southern Boy at heart though? I'm not sure what all the qualifications are.

It's one of the verbal quirks I have that began as a conscious attempt at humor, but then was used so frequently that it became a habit!

SideOilerFE, Robert, ToughOldFord, Jamie, BobbyFord, FoMoCoGuy, 70_F100, George, 70ShortWide, Ryan, Fordman, IAmTheWreckingCrew, and Tim, thanks again for your truly excellent replies!!!

Robroy