Strange starter sound

[Zorm]

71 F250 with 360 and c-6. Had the engine and taranny out to replace freeze plugs and while there, water pump, timing chain, motor mounts, clean up and paint. I also separated engine and tranny to check the freeze plug at the back of the engine, look good. Got it all back together.

So everything is connected, well with one issue. Since I am not a fan of draining the oil onto the cross member, I added a small ball valve of sorts, it extends about an 1" to 1 1/4' out from the pan, as I was lowering the engine, I saw that it was going to just about hit the cross member, so i added maybe two large washers to each motor mount bolt on the engine side. Lowered fine, oil drain cleared. So I go to put the tranny cross member back in and see that I am about 1/2-1" forward of where it should be. I get the engine /tranny back hooked to the lift and "jocky" them to see if I can get more it all back a little more. End up still being short. So I keep the motor mounts loose and put a come-along on the tranny to get it back far enough to get the drive shaft connected and the tranny mount bolted in.

I go to start the truck and hear a grinding / metal on metal when I crank it over from the starter, she turns over though and eventually, after playing with the dizzy, get her to start. Once the starter disengages, sound goes away. Said all that to ask, could I have the starter in wrong somehow? since I had the engine and tranny separated and they did go back together ok, could I have messed some up there, or since I had to use a come-along to get the driveline / tranny mount connected, could I have done some thing there? (by the way, new timing chain, rebuilt carb, she purrs like a kitten after she's warmed up)

thoughts welcome, thanks

[DuckRyder]

Did the converter seat fully when you put it back together? It has IIRC 3 engagements...

Related to the positioning of the trans cross member, Do you have the motor mounts on the correct side and both he mounts and perches (if you removed them) in the proper holes...

[cep62]

Did you put the plate between the motor and trans back in?

[Zorm]

Yes, plate back in, everything appeared to seal correctly when mating the engine and tranny back together. Yes, motor mounts in the correct holes, I thought I put the correct one ones on the correct sides, I know they are marked. I’ll check and make sure this weekend

[nooptions69]

Along the same lines, when the converter is fully engaged you need to pull it rearward about 1/4" to bolt up to the plate. Not sure if your frame has 2 sets of cross member holes but mine does, about an inch apart. I assumed it was for mounting an auto or a stick.

Bottom line though, if you've properly rejoined the trans and engine they become a solid unit and I can't imagine how your starter troubles developed (unless someone had the starter shimmed) and why you couldn't just drop everything back into place. Your motor elevation trick with a couple of washers would have no impact on starter engagement and would not alter the fitment back to the cross member in my view.

Another thing that is possible is the cross member being reversed when you re-installed it. It would still bolt in and even though the tranny mount bolt is slightly angled you might still be able to get it together. Just a few more ideas I guess.

[Zorm]

I never took the torque converter add the engine, just separated the engine and tranny enough to look at the rear freeze plug. I took the starter off when I removed the engine and don’t remember any shims. The tranny cross member has been in the same place for ever. I did remove it to clean and repaint about 2 years ago but did not have any fitment issues.

[nooptions69]

If you pulled the trans back far enough to see the soft plug without unbolting the torque converter from the flex plate you will need to revisit that. Don't know if you can do it but unbolt the converter from the flywheel and see if you can rotate the converter while turning it clockwise until it seats further into the transmission and can be turned freely. If you can't push the converter back and spin it easily you will need to separate the engine and transmission enough to free up the converter. Then you need to rotate and push the converter clockwise toward the transmission until complete engagement is achieved (as DuckRyder has already described). Hopefully no damage was done, but when you rejoin the engine and transmission you need to be able to freely rotate the converter. When you are able to do that you will know it is fully engaged. Then you can pull the converter slightly forward and bolt it back up to the flexplate.

[DuckRyder]

Agree.

And you can bend a flywheel if that converter isn’t properly seated... umm we don’t need to get into how I know this... which definitely could cause the starter to not sound right.

Incidentally I put mounts on my engine a couple days ago and flipping them side to side would throw you off about an inch. (dimples up, flange to the back.)

[Zorm]

ah, think I'm dimples down.. they are marked but I may have been thinking backwards.. If I never disconnected the flywheel or torque converter from the flywheel, could a misalignment, even though everything bolted up, be my issue?

[nooptions69]

Based upon the discussion so far I would hazard a guess that you have 2 issues, the possibility of reversed mounts and torque converter to transmission engagement. Once you bolted everything together and had starter problems still leads to converter engagement. Where the engine sits (mount issue) would have no impact on the starter issue. I strongly recommend you check out the mounts and torque converter engagement issues to put this to bed. We all slip up now and then, I am about to pull apart my Galaxie's 445 / top loader arrangement because I was too lazy to check run-out on parts sourced from desert floors (literally in Arizona!). I chewed the flywheel and blocker rings in the trans for lack of a simple check. To everyone out there, measure twice and cut once!!!!!!

[DuckRyder]

For the mounts, follow the links in this thread to Ryans gallery.

http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... =3&t=86940

The dimples up is somewhat counter intuitive but the perches have teardrop holes in them to accommodate. If they were marked and you put them on the same side as marked, but dimple down that would result in the stud being offset about an inch in the wrong direction, so that explains your trans crossmember issue.

For the starter noise.

The converter snout must engage fully it it takes 3 steps or clicks. They are persnickety. It it isn’t engaged fully then it would put both the front pump and flywheel under stress. That could account for your starter noise.

By separating the trans and engine far enough to see the core plugs without unbolting the converter you have undoubtably pulled the converter out of the pump. Theoretically if nothing turned it should have gone back in, but I’d say your noise is a signal that either something turned, or theory has let you down.

I’d pull one or the other (engine or trans) detach the converter from the engine and check everything out. If it isn’t fully seated it’ll kill the pump (assuming it hasn’t already).

You could try unbolting the converter and seeing it it will slide back, Its been a while since I had a stock converter, but IIRC it will slide back far enough to turn freely...

[DuckRyder]

BTW, I’mm gonna move this to engine...

[Zorm]

Alright, think I got it. Removed the engine and tranny again, easier with no front sheet metal and a rolling "A" frame. Engine on jack stands, tranny on tranny jack.

Separated the two and removed the converter from the ring gear. Put the converter on the shaft in the tranny So I spun clockwise and pushed. At first, just spun. Had to wiggle it a little to get it to seat. Spun it some more, another seat/move more into the bell housing, but that is all I got. So as it sits, I cant even get a finger between the converter and the back of the bell housing I am assuming, its all the way in.

Bolted the tranny back to the engine lining up the converter bolts to holes in the ring gear. Loosened all the spark plugs for easier engine rotation and bolted the converter back on the ring gear.

Engine back in the truck, changing the motor mounts made everything line back up so much better, so dimples up, flange towards the rear.

Did not get everything reconnected yet, but will post the results.

So if I did damage the pump as DuckRider stated, how can I tell? First time dealing with removal and reattachment of an automatic. Always delt with manual trannys.

[DuckRyder]

Just wrested mine back in a few days ago, boy do I wish I’d had the front metal off....

Short answer on pump damage:

• No drive due to no pressure
• Symptoms of low line pressure
• Metal in trans fluid

That is aside from visual inspection.

If it moves when put in gear and you didn’t run it long like it was you’re probably OK...

[Zorm]

The rear end was moving in gear with the starter noise, not while starting though, maybe after a few seconds. I had to put the rear end on jack stands (I did a no-no and bypassed the netural safety switch) so she will start in any gear. Will remedy that shortly.