Robert, Ryan, BobbyFord, 70ShortWide, and FoMoCoGuy, thanks very much for your great replies!
DuckRyder wrote:
One thing that I would like everyone to keep in mind is that I would be willing to bet that ProFormance Unlimited is already reading this thread. There is at least one other person on this site that has one of their engines and even if one of their customers hasn’t already provided it to them, as we already talked about it turns up when you Google their name + problem, if I owned a business, I think I'd Google myself occasionally (despite what the celebrities say).
Excellent point!
DuckRyder wrote:There is more than one way to approach this, what robroy has worked on is definitely one way by essentially giving them “credit” for the salvageable parts. If I approached it that way, I would make every effort to use the actual prices from normally available suppliers. Summit racing for the new stuff and perhaps DSC Motorsports for the crank, heads, rods, and so forth.
Excellent thinking on the prices! As you know, the list I posted before was a really rough draft, but I tried to base most of those prices on what I could find at Summit. But should I make this list, I'll be sure to use the most realistic prices I can!
DuckRyder wrote:You could also just consider the engine block/heads/rods/crank and so forth a “core” and use the price it would cost to buy a used engine to rebuild. $150.00 would buy one around here, but that “105” block would bring good money at DSC.
This is my inclination, since at least the heads, crank, and block are basically "cores" at this point. That's quite interesting that the "105" block is valuable. Any idea how valuable? If Proformance Unlimited sold me something of value I should know about it, so I can keep my position completely fair.
DuckRyder wrote:The other way to look at it is to take what you were promised and determine what it would cost to have someone turn what you have into what was promised. How that works out depends on how well you can document what they promised. I am assuming you probably have some E-Mails that will do that.
Probably the best documentation regarding what they promised will be found in their paper invoice. It detailed many of the parts in the engine, including, I believe, a performance spec of "400 horsepower." It was
on the phone that I heard the "436 horsepower and 463 ft/lbs of torque at 4,000 RPM" specifications.
DuckRyder wrote:I think that would yield a higher dollar amount, because I honestly do not think you can build a 436hp normally aspirated 390FE for $8995.00 (or whatever the exact figure was) including the carburetor, distributor, oil pan MSD and so forth.
Yes perhaps not!
DuckRyder wrote:Realistically mine probably makes something in the 400 – 425 HP range (although DD2000 said something ridiculous like 575) and the machine shop bill ALONE was $3500.00 and the only parts they supplied were the cam, rod and main bearings.
Ah, very interesting!
DuckRyder wrote:Either way you look at it I would use “real” money, if you were buying all of the parts individually you would shop the best price, so do not give them credit for MSRP if you can buy it for less. Likewise, if they said speed pro forged pistons do not charge them for Diamond of Ross, is the speed pros would make the power.
I see your point and agree--I should make all of the prices as realistic as possible. I think you're right that they said Speed Pro forged pistons at some point, even though they didn't actually wind up using those.
DuckRyder wrote:I would make it clear when talking to them, that I was not at this point looking to recover mileage, expendables, labor and so forth, but if it required legal action to reach a settlement I would be looking to recover every possible cent.
Excellent point. Yeah that's the truth and I should make sure to communicate it to them clearly.
DuckRyder wrote:Do not forget that there may be other help like:
The Better Business Bureau…
California consumer protection Laws…
Interstate commerce laws…
I am not a lawyer, so check all this out with yours, but avail yourself of all avenues to recover what you feel is due.
Thanks for that list! I may check in to it, but I'd probably hire a lawyer before spending too much time on my own, if my wishes turn out to be in conflict with theirs.
DuckRyder wrote:I think a computer guy, who has a ton of pictures and other evidence should be considered a significant threat should he take a notion to do something like whip up a webpage, detail this whole thing with “8x10 color glossies with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the side”. Even more so when he can get a thread on a little old Ford truck board on the first page of Google hits.
In other words, this could turn into a whole mess-O-trouble.
True! And I'm also guessing that my polite and agreeable demeanor works strongly in my favor, and makes my position seem more credible. Everybody here knows that I'm looking for a fair outcome, and not trying to "get back" at them or anything like that.
There's at least one other complaint against a Proformance Unlimited engine on the web, yet you can tell by reading it that the guy wasn't emotionally controlled--he was kind of "going off." That made his position slightly less believable to me (when I read it), although based on my own experience with PU, I see it in a different light.
1971ford wrote:
Dang, so i could of met you down there after all, you stayed for quite a while! Oh well.
Yup! Tom is so generous with his time--it was a fun afternoon. I'm sure I'll see you there though for the test run!
1971ford wrote:I'm leaving to go see Tom in half an hour, I'll say hi to your engine
Excellent! Be sure to let Tom know that we're buddies and you're following my engine scenario (just for his amusement)!
BobbyFord wrote:Wrong. Not in California. All parties invloved must be aware of a recorded telephone conversation:
Hey BobbyFord, thanks for finding out about the California law on that! Even if it were legal, I'd feel like I was being disrespectful towards them to record without their knowledge.
70shortwide wrote:duckryder- good point to bring up about them watching this thread. we should all take a little caution to consider what we write in here. especially robroy I would think. if I were in the shoes of Pro-formance unlimited, I would consider some of robroys plans and intentions as good information to have.
Hey 70ShortWide, you're right, and Robert had some very good thoughts there. Since I realize that this thread's completely public, I'm assuming that Proformance Unlimited
is reading every post, and that doesn't bother me. I have no wish to hide things from them, or trick them, or try to "get the upper hand."
Furthermore, and this may be the most significant point, I'm not in conflict with them at all right now. I haven't asked them to do anything that they've turned out. Although the predictions in this thread seem to strongly suggest that a conflict is imminent. I'm still figuring that they'll care about my situation and try to help me out; I'm very curious to see!
fomocoguy wrote:WOW. Those cylinders look absolutely terrible! I'm really at a loss for words.
OK! It's good to know that they look bad to you too. I haven't seen a lot of cylinders in my day, although I did notice that on the engines Tom is building, the cylinders have a pristine, mirror-smooth finish.
BobbyFord wrote:
The wear is on the thrust side of the bore. Possibly piston rock from excessive piston/cylinder wall clearance.
Good observation! You're probably right, although come to think of it, I'm not sure if I got any photos of the other side of the cylinders (the "roof" of the cylinders, based on how the engine was positioned).
fomocoguy wrote:Robroy, how did the pistons look?
Their walls were pretty scratched up. I'll be posting some high definition photos of those soon!
fomocoguy wrote:Were they as worn as the cylinders?
The wear looked different on them. I guess they didn't look quite as worn, but my photos will be most telling.
fomocoguy wrote:It's really a double edged sword; if they look old and worn then they weren't replaced; if they look new and shiny then they were replaced but put into worn old cylinders. Wow. Just wow.
The pistons look new (to me). And although you certainly could be correct about the worn old cylinders, from what I heard from Tom, the wear was most likely caused by fragments coming off of the camshaft (photos of that are coming soon also)!
fomocoguy wrote:One thing is for sure, wear like that doesn't happen in a half hour of run time unless the tolerances are WAAAY out of spec.
Yes, you could be right here!
DuckRyder wrote:Lets stand down for a few hours and let robroy get all his pictures and video up...
Thanks Robert! The delay's my fault though for getting wrapped up in replying to all the great posts! I'll focus more on photos and video now and respond to all the posts when they're all posted.
Robert, Ryan, BobbyFord, 70ShortWide, and FoMoCoGuy, thanks again for your superb replies!
Robroy
