f800 330ci

[mouse]

a friends uncle has told me of a good fe block and heads to find is a 330ci from a f800 with high nickel that I would like to find and put the rotating asembuly out of a 428 cobra jet in it (I know it has to be bored). what would be the parts number on the block and heads

"what dose fe stand for"

[fmartin_gila1]

Just to widen your search, You should be able to find that engine on down to the F500 models.

Fred

[DuckRyder]

That would be an FT.

The heads do not interchange, and there is a special busing required to use an FE distributor in an FT block.

I think you have been given dubious information, although FT's do frequently have sufficiant cylinder wall material to go to a 428 bore, due to core shift and erosion issues I'd still want to have it sonic checked.

Check with DSC for already sonic checked or true 428 blocks.

http://www.dscmotorsport.com/Engine/index.htm

[Hawkrod]

Robert is correct except that you can put FE heads on an FT (I assume you just plan to use the block to build an FE? That is common) you just have to use FE manifolds. The other issue is the fact that there is no way that the block is high nickel content. That is fallacy created by eBay and swap meet vendors that are used to Chevy engines. Ford actually kept records regarding metal content of blocks and nickel was not a material that Ford engineers played with much and appears in the same amount in almost all Ford blocks from a 122 pinto to a 429 Super cobra Jet. They were much more fond of chromium. Having said that, Ford was different than GM because they pretty much made all of their standard engines out of the same metal and only a rare few performance engines were actually made from anything else. Below is a ton of information about this and I only share it as it is such a common misunderstanding and only by sharing can we kill the myth. Fortunately all the Ford documents pertaining to this still exist and what is posted below is but a drop in the bucket of what ford has available for anybody who wishes to research it at their archives. Hawkrod

Quotes from Dave Shoe an amateur archivist studying Ford FE engines (edited for clarity/updated information):
"CJ blocks were the same grade 30 gray iron as all other FE and FT production blocks. A very few of the racing 427 blocks were cast with added chromium. Levels of phosphorous was apparently controlled in blocks in the 1970s and heads to improve tensile strength, possibly changing the tensile spec to grade 32 or so. I'm not sure when the control of phosphorous was started.

A half-dozen 427 sideoiler blocks were cast of nodular iron by Bill Holbrook in the mid-1960s, but they destroyed the cutter bits on the engine block production line, taking the line out of service for longer than a shift. These nodular blocks were then sent out to be machined and delivered to Connie Kalitta for his Cammer dragster. Never heard back from Connie on how well thay worked, or if they worked.

Most FE maincaps were grade 30 gray iron, but some were cast of ferritic-ferritic nodular iron (same nodular as differentials, but different than crankshaft nodular). Nearly all nodular maincaps have a ladybug-shaped bump located on at least one maincap, typically #3. Crossbolted caps usually have a ladybug bump (or two) on all of the front four caps. Nodular differential caps also usually have a ladybug bump on them, though I guess some have an "N" marking. The bumps tell the machinist they must use special cutting parameters, as gray iron and nodular are machined differently."

"Dave Shoe
Admin When chromium is selected for this application, nickel is not beneficial. June 27 2006, 7:04 PM


Chromium is the alloy Ford preferred. Chrysler liked tin best. Both do the job well. Nickel can also be selected, but it was not a favorite of Chrysler or Ford in the 1960s. Invariably, it comes down to microstructure and chemistry. To achieve the higher-tensile gray irons, an alloy is chosen that will be low cost, easy on cutting tools, and effective.

Note that Genesis originally added 2.0% nickel to their blocks, but were forced to back off to 0.5% to make them economical to machine. There are applications for adding 2% nickel in some cast iron applications, but engine blocks is generally not one of them.

While the combination of chromium and nickel have particular benefits in certain types of stainless steel or stainless iron, they can actually work against each other when alloyed together in cast iron. It can be done, but there is a trade-off.

Ford seems to have selected chromium as their favorite addition during the 1960s. Addition of nickel to this chromium would have actually degraded some of the desired tensile properties, since the chromium acts to favor a particular cast iron microstructure, but nickel tends to favor formation of an entirely different type of cast iron microstructure. Together, they arrest each others ability to bias an alloy. Again, this can be beneficial in some cases, but not in this case.

All FE engine blocks contained small amounts of nickel. In this application, however, it is called an impurity, as it was not used to provide strength, nor was it added. Ford had experience machining special chromium-alloyed irons on the engine machining lines. Trying to get permission to run an alternate alloy meant you took on a great deal of responsibility if something went wrong (burned a bunch of cutting tools, shutting down the engine line for repairs). Many odd alloys were certainly run in the FE, but they were not as common as ebay auction descriptions might have you think.

According to Bill Holbrook (Ford engineer who developed the Cammer for drag racing), 427 blocks, whether the common FE/FT alloy or an unusual high-chromium alloy, were machined on the FE cylinder line. To reduce scrap rate, the engineer would have the 427 blocks machined to a certain transfer slot on the line, would pull the blocks out at, say, machine operation #120, would bring them to a specialty vendor with CNC machining capabilities (Paramount Boring was one of the favorite companies for this) to reduce scrap rate by holding tighter tolerances than were available on the line, and would replug the blocks back in on another day, up the line farther at a specific operation, such as #180.

Note that all raw 427 block castings got vidi-gaged (sonic mapped), and would only be accepted for the NASCAR or drag programs if the cylinder walls measured .125" or better. The alloy wasn't the big racing issue, the structure was. After sonic mapping, the blocks selected for racing would be sent out to town to be "Coaleen cleaned" (probably misspelled, "Coaleen" was a company in Detroit) to rattle the castings further and then chemically dissolve all the remaining core sand. The racing blocks were then pressure tested using water. Those that passed got placed onto the Engine Department's machining line to be machined though operation #120.

Different colors of a casting likely have more to do with differing solvents or oils sprayed onto the blocks, as some tend to dissolve the graphite flakes whereas others tend to leave the graphite flakes alone. Remember, cast iron is about 4% carbon by weight, and this means it is almost 15% carbon by volume. This is entirely why cast iron weighs about 10% less than steel, as it contains so much carbon.

Keep in mind, steel is far closer to pure elemental iron than cast iron is. Steel is nothing more than pure iron plus about 0.01% to 3% carbon added, whereas cast iron is pure iron containing between 3% to 5% carbon. Fortunately, cast iron is microstructurally very different than steel. Above 5% carbon, an iron alloy has little commercial value.

JMO,
Shoe. "


Details:


Large size to read:
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/2631 ... ements.jpg



Large size to read:
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/2631 ... romium.jpg







Large size to read:
http://mysite.verizon.net/tcherry3/pict ... ckinfo.jpg

[willowbilly3]

I had a snap-on dealer back around the late 70s that had to get a new 360 block, warranted from Ford he said, because it got too much nickel and the rings would never seat. I cannot document that but I don't know why he would have made it up. I also know they had problems with the composition of the later 360 heads and the guides wallered out in a very short time. I owned 2 of those trucks new, a 74 and a 76 and both of those engines were sorry oil burning junk. The 74 burned a quart every 200-300 miles from new. So my take on Ford's archives is they don't tell the WHOLE truth about the alloys. I sold the 76 to my brother in law and Ford actually sent him a check because he had the engine rebuilt at 25,000.

The 330 heads have tiny valves and small runners, other than some really expensive (sodium filled?) valves, there would be no reason at all to use them anyway.

[mouse]

he told me that them heads you can port them a long ways and put large sodium fill vales in it and have a strong set of head, with a 428 cobra jet rotating assemble for a strong bottom end. he has built two that way and one was in a 80s f350 he built(not a 460) he also showed me a 700 cfm 2 bbl holley for a ford he had on his first and alcohol set up

[DuckRyder]

I apologize for not being clearer in my statement about interchange.

The exhaust crossovers in the heads are not the same I do not recall whether it is possible to mate an FE manifold to FT heads by blocking them, but it is a non-trivial matter for sure.

You do not seem as if you are going to be dissuaded in this endeavor, in spite of Hawkrods excellent and correct information, however I feel compelled to point out:

1) FE blocks are not weak; a standard FE block will withstand substantial horsepower levels.
2) You will probably have more money in buying and converting a 330 block to a 428 block than buying a real 428 block.

[mouse]

yes he did post good info and I don't think it is a high nickel block anymore, but it still seems to be a stronger block any ways, good detailed info on the difference between a fe and ft block design is hard to find like as if I was trying to find a 427 cammer

[Hawkrod]

I am sorry that making people with "actual experience" wrong is a problem for you. Unfortunately what you do not understand is that I have much more experience than most people which is how I got into finding the truth. I personally feel that it is much more important to find the truth than it is to worry about finding out that somebody was wrong. In this particular case is is a huge issue as so many people get fleeced every day buying "high nickel" blocks that don't actually exit. Your friend got told a story by some guys at a dealership and then he spread the story. That is exactly how these myths get life. The reality is that when I was a LM shop foreman, I would have written any of my guys up for telling a customer something like that. It was both untrue and innapropriate. You fix the problem and apologize, you never lay blame on the manufacturing process and you never say anything to the effect that there may be more. The fact that your buddy got told what he did shows that the guys who told him that were lazy and unprofessional and rather than tell the truth they just made up a story that sounded good. When you have 30+ years in the industry like I do then you can tell me that my experience is not actual. BTW, I never made any mention about modifying heads. I certainly never said anything about it being counter productive. Please don't make up stuff or atribute stuff to people who did not post it. Hawkrod

[DuckRyder]

O.K everyone has said his piece on this block hardness issue let us not allow it to degrade.

FWIW, I do believe that WillowBilly's comment about the heads was related to the O.P.s original premise of building an FE from a 330 block and heads, and later assertion that the 330 heads can be "ported", which I do fully agree would be counterproductive.

[willowbilly3]

I am sorry that making people with "actual experience" wrong is a problem for you. Unfortunately what you do not understand is that I have much more experience than most people which is how I got into finding the truth. I personally feel that it is much more important to find the truth than it is to worry about finding out that somebody was wrong. In this particular case is is a huge issue as so many people get fleeced every day buying "high nickel" blocks that don't actually exit. Your friend got told a story by some guys at a dealership and then he spread the story. That is exactly how these myths get life. The reality is that when I was a LM shop foreman, I would have written any of my guys up for telling a customer something like that. It was both untrue and innapropriate. You fix the problem and apologize, you never lay blame on the manufacturing process and you never say anything to the effect that there may be more. The fact that your buddy got told what he did shows that the guys who told him that were lazy and unprofessional and rather than tell the truth they just made up a story that sounded good. When you have 30+ years in the industry like I do then you can tell me that my experience is not actual. BTW, I never made any mention about modifying heads. I certainly never said anything about it being counter productive. Please don't make up stuff or atribute stuff to people who did not post it. Hawkrod

Sorry for the misunderstanding that the last half of my post had anything to do with what you said, it didn't. That was just my thoughts on using the 330 heads. I also have to agree that much misinformation gets dispensed at the dealer level.
I worked at a GMC dealership when I was a kid. Occasionally we got pickup with a Chevrolet tailgate or horn button. It wasn't written any where that it could happen, nor would the regional warranty rep even officially admit it was possible. It probably didn't really happen.

[mouse]

I had a 85 fiero that I was building a 427 sbc from a 400 sbc that I started and was going to port a stock set of heads by my self. I doubt his info to begin whit because he said my block don't have a pilot bearing hole drilled on the crank

[willowbilly3]

I had a 85 fiero that I was building a 427 sbc from a 400 sbc that I started and was going to port a stock set of heads by my self. I doubt his info to begin whit because he said my block don't have a pilot bearing hole drilled on the crank

I never had an issue with a chevy not having a pilot hole (not saying it didn't happen) but most Oldsmobiles didn't have one unless they came with a stickshift. So how did the sbc into a fiero work out for you? Sounds like a zinger.

[mouse]

I almost had every thing to gather till I recked the car but I am going to get another so I can put my motor in it

[Hawkrod]

I had a 85 fiero that I was building a 427 sbc from a 400 sbc that I started and was going to port a stock set of heads by my self. I doubt his info to begin whit because he said my block don't have a pilot bearing hole drilled on the crank

I never had an issue with a chevy not having a pilot hole (not saying it didn't happen) but most Oldsmobiles didn't have one unless they came with a stickshift. So how did the sbc into a fiero work out for you? Sounds like a zinger.

I will second that one, I still have a Muncie M22 sitting here with the input pilot cut short to fit an automatic Oldsmobile crank! Hawkrod